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Post by Cinnamon on May 16, 2018 10:52:19 GMT
In December 2017 a short story called "Cat Person" appeared in The New Yorker magazine, traditionally regarded as the world's top publication for literary fiction. www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/12/11/cat-person I must be living under a rock because until yesterday I had never heard of "Cat Person," or of its author, Kristen Roupenian. Apparently the story went viral and continues to be much discussed. According to journalist Lorraine Candy: "Everyone I know was talking about Cat Person...(e)very woman I talked to about it said it gave them goosebumps (whatever their age)...." www.thetimes.co.uk/article/editor-s-letter-lorraine-candy-on-the-uncomfortable-conversation-behind-cat-person-the-story-of-the-year-gkzbqxkdfNB: Registration required for the above article I have placed this thread in Class Discussion rather than R&R, because nearly all paragraphs of "Cat Person," and the public response the story has invoked, are central to the main thesis of WWNH. I don't know if "Cat Person" was ever discussed at WWNH (I was largely absent from WWNH for the last two years), but I believe Sir Guy would have been FASCINATED by the phenomenon. Instead of opening this discussion with my own impressions of "Cat Person", I am throwing the topic out to the floor. As usual for the study of WWNH, there is no formal structure for this discussion - any and all comments/questions/observations are welcome.
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Post by anonymouswife on May 16, 2018 17:49:37 GMT
Wow- powerful story.
I didn't read the analysis (from thetimes.co.uk) and I also haven't read much of WWNH's articles about dating since I joined the site after being married and was mainly interested in marriage-related advice. I am sure Sir Guy would have had a lot to say about this! I am not completely clear on what the author's main message was- it seems that in part it was trying to show how women feel compelled to go through with sex in order to preserve a man’s ego/ or out of fear of a negative reaction from him if she is to change her mind in the middle of having sex. I am not sure if this was the main point though because there seem to be so many other things going on.... This is what stood out to me:
- Her emotions towards him constantly change and she seems to have no control over these emotions. She goes from flirting with him out of boredom to liking him to really liking him, to being afraid he doesn't like her, to being depressed because she feels rejected by him, to caring about him because she starts to realize he is vulnerable, to being sexually attracted to him and then finally, repulsed by him. She acts towards him based on these feelings alone, she has no plan or calculated actions...she seems to be a victim of her own emotions. She exerts no control over her situation.
- Their "relationship" involves superficial communication about mundane things, jokes etc and doesn't incorporate any real values, plans, etc. She doesn't get to know him and that is why, when she gets to his house, she is afraid. She has no idea who this person is and realizes she could be in danger.
- She didn't dress up for their date- she basically wore pajamas. She realized this, but only when he seemed aloof to her and then she felt insecure. This is definitely contrary to WWNH- where Sir Guy always enforced the importance and blessing of being "pretty" and making yourself look nice and feminine.
- The ending of the story is sad- he was humiliated. She was disappointed...she thought they would get married at one point in the beginning of the story. He didn't hurt her, but he did insult her. Yes, he could have NOT done that and it isn't right, and obviously the author is trying to turn him into the villain, but in reality, the character shows very poor moral standards and judgment, and Sir Guy always wrote that as women go, so goes society. She insulted his manhood and rejected him after sleeping with him...she humiliated him. She saw nothing (intellectually) wrong with sleeping with him right away other than he could possibly hurt her (but she still did it).
- She talks to her friends instead of her mirror image. She told all her friends about the encounter...even her guy friends! She seeks "relief" or "validation" from her friends but not from herself not from G-d.
People may read this story and say "that is why you shouldn't have sex with a guy you barely know...because if it is bad he will call you a whore" but really what is sad is she destroyed her chances of being in a relationship with someone because she slept with him without knowing him and without self-discipline to follow her head and not her emotions. She could have possibly found true love or at least saved herself from creating an awkward and humiliating situation from happening.
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Post by Cinnamon on May 17, 2018 14:14:16 GMT
Wow- powerful story.
I didn't read the analysis (from thetimes.co.uk) and I also haven't read much of WWNH's articles about dating since I joined the site after being married and was mainly interested in marriage-related advice. I am sure Sir Guy would have had a lot to say about this! I am not completely clear on what the author's main message was- it seems that in part it was trying to show how women feel compelled to go through with sex in order to preserve a man’s ego/ or out of fear of a negative reaction from him if she is to change her mind in the middle of having sex. I am not sure if this was the main point though because there seem to be so many other things going on.... This is what stood out to me:
- Her emotions towards him constantly change and she seems to have no control over these emotions. She goes from flirting with him out of boredom to liking him to really liking him, to being afraid he doesn't like her, to being depressed because she feels rejected by him, to caring about him because she starts to realize he is vulnerable, to being sexually attracted to him and then finally, repulsed by him. She acts towards him based on these feelings alone, she has no plan or calculated actions...she seems to be a victim of her own emotions. She exerts no control over her situation.
- Their "relationship" involves superficial communication about mundane things, jokes etc and doesn't incorporate any real values, plans, etc. She doesn't get to know him and that is why, when she gets to his house, she is afraid. She has no idea who this person is and realizes she could be in danger.
- She didn't dress up for their date- she basically wore pajamas. She realized this, but only when he seemed aloof to her and then she felt insecure. This is definitely contrary to WWNH- where Sir Guy always enforced the importance and blessing of being "pretty" and making yourself look nice and feminine.
- The ending of the story is sad- he was humiliated. She was disappointed...she thought they would get married at one point in the beginning of the story. He didn't hurt her, but he did insult her. Yes, he could have NOT done that and it isn't right, and obviously the author is trying to turn him into the villain, but in reality, the character shows very poor moral standards and judgment, and Sir Guy always wrote that as women go, so goes society. She insulted his manhood and rejected him after sleeping with him...she humiliated him. She saw nothing (intellectually) wrong with sleeping with him right away other than he could possibly hurt her (but she still did it).
- She talks to her friends instead of her mirror image. She told all her friends about the encounter...even her guy friends! She seeks "relief" or "validation" from her friends but not from herself not from G-d.
People may read this story and say "that is why you shouldn't have sex with a guy you barely know...because if it is bad he will call you a whore" but really what is sad is she destroyed her chances of being in a relationship with someone because she slept with him without knowing him and without self-discipline to follow her head and not her emotions. She could have possibly found true love or at least saved herself from creating an awkward and humiliating situation from happening. The story functions on multiple levels. I think it is primarily about the damage the hookup culture does to male-female relatioships. The hookup culture survives only because women do not understand either the male nature or the female nature, and because of this lack of knowledge, act destructively. "As women go, so goes society," as you cite. As I read it I thought about the great theme of Oedipus Rex - "know thyself." Margot does not know herself. And this leads to destruction. Here is what I find most fascinating, however:I suspect Roupenian is every bit as confused as Margot herself, and that she unwittingly exposed something that she herself doesn't understand. Moreover, I suspect the reason the story created so much "buzz" amongst women is that although they can identify with Margot's feelings and actions, they don't understand the underlying dynamics. Any WWNH reader, by contrast, can pretty much decode every feeling and action in the story. I will create a second response to comment on your list directly. It's a bit difficult to format these responses.
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Post by Cinnamon on May 17, 2018 14:37:43 GMT
My responses in blue:
1. Her emotions towards him constantly change and she seems to have no control over these emotions. She goes from flirting with him out of boredom to liking him to really liking him, to being afraid he doesn't like her, to being depressed because she feels rejected by him, to caring about him because she starts to realize he is vulnerable, to being sexually attracted to him and then finally, repulsed by him. She acts towards him based on these feelings alone, she has no plan or calculated actions...she seems to be a victim of her own emotions. She exerts no control over her situation.
Yes - she has "no plan" because she doesn't understand her own hopes and dreams. She doesn't understand that she is the buyer so she puts herself primarily in the seller role, flip-flopping naturally back to the buyer role when acting on her instincts, which she doesn't understand. She is on a roller-coaster ride where she doesn't know the destination so she cannot steer.
2. Their "relationship" involves superficial communication about mundane things, jokes etc and doesn't incorporate any real values, plans, etc. She doesn't get to know him and that is why, when she gets to his house, she is afraid. She has no idea who this person is and realizes she could be in danger.
She should never been in his house so early on in the relationship. She was a dumb bunny by texting him so much, and then by meeting him at the 7-11 earlier on. Again, it's that runaway roller-coaster ride driven by emotions that she doesn't understand.
3. She didn't dress up for their date- she basically wore pajamas. She realized this, but only when he seemed aloof to her and then she felt insecure. This is definitely contrary to WWNH- where Sir Guy always enforced the importance and blessing of being "pretty" and making yourself look nice and feminine.
Big mistake, but he still is attracted to her. She instinctively is drawn to him when she is aware of the male nature - that he finds her pretty.
4. The ending of the story is sad- he was humiliated. She was disappointed...she thought they would get married at one point in the beginning of the story. He didn't hurt her, but he did insult her. Yes, he could have NOT done that and it isn't right, and obviously the author is trying to turn him into the villain, but in reality, the character shows very poor moral standards and judgment, and Sir Guy always wrote that as women go, so goes society. She insulted his manhood and rejected him after sleeping with him...she humiliated him. She saw nothing (intellectually) wrong with sleeping with him right away other than he could possibly hurt her (but she still did it).
After conquest, he owns the agenda. She doesn't recognise this because she doesn't understand the male nature. She longs for marriage and for a close relationship with a man, but doesn't see the man right in front of her, who likes her DESPITE the litany of mistakes she made.
Had she given him a chance instead of rejecting him for no good reason whatsoever, she might have ended up with a very nice husband.
With respect to his insult, he was very polite to her, but she really did provoke him with her extreme rudeness. She treated him like dirt! Imagine how she would have felt if the tables were turned. She is an idiot!
I do think Roupenian is trying to make Robert out be the villian when he strikes out at her - but I am not buying it. She brought that ugly insult on herself by the way she treated him. But one unwritten rule of hookup culture is that women should be able to treat men however they want with no consequences. It infantalizes the woman and demonizes the man, showing again how hookup mentality sows division, hurt, and hatred between men and women - just as it is designed to.
5. She talks to her friends instead of her mirror image. She told all her friends about the encounter...even her guy friends! She seeks "relief" or "validation" from her friends but not from herself not from G-d.
Sir Guy always says don't gossip negatively about any man - whether date or husband - to your girlfriends. Again, by not understanding her own hopes and dreams, she ensures she will not be able to fulfill them - at least with Robert.
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Post by myspinningarrow on May 24, 2018 18:37:48 GMT
I found this story very interesting.
I'm sure a lot of women (including myself) can relate to this story, having had similar experiences in the past before discovering WWNH.
I agree with the analysis that you ladies have provided...if only more women understood these principles!
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